UED ：为什么您认为乡村是未来？库哈斯：可能在15年前或12年前，我有一种直觉，在建筑实践和学术交流中，我感觉绝大多数的注意力都集中在城市上，这真的很奇怪，他们只讨论城市问题和城市的未来。 这种直觉，让我开始关注乡村并有不少领悟，其中最重要的一个应该是，如果你放眼看世界，城市只不过是些极 其微小的碎片，而真正塑造整个世界的其实是乡村，所以我开始意识到学术界考虑的只是世界的一小部分，世界
的大部分仍有待探索，而这一大部分不仅没有被正确认识，也没有得到应有的关注，这不能不说让人匪夷所思，
那是当时一开始的情况，如果我们现在用心去关注一下，就看最近四个月，你会发现在德国、波兰、荷兰、俄罗斯、
22美女网
阿拉伯和中国的乡村，大自然正在以令人难以置信的强势逆袭，出现了许多惊人的革新，发生了许多不可思议的
故事。但是为什么呢？我认为我的直觉和这一现象之间的巧合肯定不是偶然，所以说我最初直觉是一个
值得关注
的问题，当然，最紧迫的问题是，既然说乡村是大环境或者是乡村组成了世界，我们人类是否有未来，能否成为
未来重要的组成部分，也马上要揭晓。我希望大家能对我的这一最初直觉给予更多的重视，不仅要从特殊的角度
去思考，还应考虑到诸多层面的问题。
UED ：今年的主题是乡村困境—新乡村设计，您为什么选择这个主题？库哈斯：我们认为，在全球层面上有许多最关键的问题和主题，也许“乡村设计”的表述过于简单，实际上也未必与乡村设计有关，而是要思考乡村可能的样子，或者我想我们应该为乡村做些什么才能拯救世界。
《全民健身条例》斯蒂芬·彼得曼：在某种程度上，这也是对我们在中国的经历的一种特殊回应。但是我的意思是影响力更广，显然不仅仅局限于中国范围内，但是你会看到，这些本来也许没必要的城市更新实践，自上而下，千篇一律的干预
措施仍然非常普通，还有许多新技术、新文化形态、新方向也在吸引人们走进乡村，这样的自下而上会更有趣、更贴切。你可以尝试这两种相结合或者单纯确保它符合当地居民的需求，这样你就不会总
是担心自上而下的美好
规划与自下而上的开发之间出现脱节，这也是我们在许多乡村环境中面临的一个挑战。
库哈斯：出于私人原因，最近我经常往返于欧洲各地，不得不说，我感到既沮丧又兴奋，令人沮丧的是，我看到乡下还在新建购物中心，机场还在大搞扩建，这真的有必要吗？还看到农业形态的极其同质化，这些都对世界产
生了极其负面的影响，但同时，我也看到了人们在非常努力地应用太阳能或风能或者在某些情况下将二者相结合，
看到了农业发展的新思路，更多样化、更小型化的农田，因此我们正处在一个有趣的时间点，一方面，我们仍在
继续同质化现代化进程，但另一方面，我们也在努力地合理控制，这样其实还是挺美好的，反正还行。就新事物
而言，乡村确实有不少。
水声工程Countryside, the Future
—An Interview with Rem Koolhaas Team, Jury Chairman in 2021
乡村，即未来——2021年评委会主席雷姆·库哈斯（团队）
专访雷姆·库哈斯 Rem Koolhaas 普利兹克建筑奖得主OMA （大都会）建筑事务所及AMO 创始人，哈佛大学教授Winner of Pritzker Architecture P r i z e , F o u n d i n g P a r t n e r of OMA /AMO, Profes sor of Harvard University
电视剧海之门
UED：考虑到乡村设计，您认为什么是“新的”？您认为乡村设计应该具备什么样的特质方向？
斯蒂芬·彼得曼： 就新事物而言，乡村确实有不少，但是也有必要真正地重新考虑库哈斯说的关于单一栽培和采掘，还有气候变化的一些要点，这也带来了一个待解决的问题，这种新方向和新事务最容易让人觉得乡村是个落后的地方，我认为这就是谬论，主要是因为城市想要抬高自己的身份，而这种谬论是我们今后无法承担的负担。因此，我认为这种在某个地方增加新事物的想法，可以帮助我们重新摆正位置，或者至少也为新认知和新需求留出空间，今天我在报纸上看了一篇有关土耳其的文章，非常有意思。
库哈斯：文章描述的是目前土耳其城市的状况，其中 一些仍在扩张，但是有一整代人，估计是年轻一代正在远离城市，他们购买一小块土地，建造简易的木屋和茅草屋，或者说，这是一种走向乡村的运动，不是出于一时冲动，也不是因为乡村如此多娇，而是为了过上另一种可能的生活，如果你想要过这种生活，也有奖励措施。UED：那么在您看来，未来乡村与城市的关系应该是怎样的？
库哈斯：在我看来现在没有关系，但我认为需要建立一种关系，确立关系涉及各种因素，我认为存在一个问题，我们生活在数字化的世界中，数字化的世界应该是虚拟不可见的，是通过电线和光纤运行的，但是为了运行数字化的世界，我们需要非常大的工厂、数据中心、数据农场等，这些实体都太大了，城市装不下它们，而且数量也越来越多，于是只能建在乡村，现在这个建设过程几乎就像当年美
国西部拓荒，完全是不加思考，不加规划，只是直接野蛮地建设，建设在原本非常美丽的土地上，我认为这可能是我们在城市和乡村一体化的过程中真正考虑的关键，这样我们才能再次将我们整个现代化基础设施联系起来。
UED：那么您对乡村未来短时间内的期望是什么？比如10年？
库哈斯：我认为10年后，如果全世界都照我说的做，在有些国家，这个不对，那个不对，在另外一些国家，你会说这个不错，那个不对，或者这个不错那个也不错，所以我感觉，将来乡村会出现更多的“不错”和鼓舞人心的发展迹象。
angolaUED：有什么话要送给参赛者吗？
库哈斯：不要关注美不美，要有自己的想法，要真实地表达你的想法，你的参赛作品不要局限在专业范围，还要能突出专业领域实现更广阔的交流。
UED: Why do you think countryside is the future?
Rem Koolhaas: It's basically a kind of just an intuition that maybe 15 years ago or 12 years ago, I kind of realized that, it's really strange in a certain way that in architecture, and in the way intellectual discourse, the vast majority of preoccupation and attention is going to urban conditions to discuss ur
ban futures and basically with that intuition I began to look at countryside. And There were various kinds of realizations and maybe the most important realization was that you know, if you look at the global sense, the kind of cities are only kind tiny fragment and that the countryside is in fact the world so, I began to realize that, it's really bizarre that intellectuals are considering only a tiny fraction of the world and that basically this other part remains under explored, misunderstood and doesn't receive the attention it deserves. That was the initial beginning. I think if you look now and maybe we should only look at the last kind of four months, you see incredibly intense counter-effects of nature in the countryside in Germany, in Holand, in Russia, in the Arab world, in China incredibly innovations, incredible stories, incredible and in almost all cases, there is a kind of strange sense, kind of surprise.
But why? And I think that those two phenomena are really related and so that basically it’s an initial intuition and acquires more and more urgency. And one of the kind of real urgency is of course now that the countryside is the environment or the section of the world whether we have a future or not will be about visible and will be a crucial component of it.
It's a kind of initial intuition that required more urgency and also therefore it is not only a particular kind of way of thinking but it's now many layers that need to be considered.
UED: The topic this year is countryside dilemmas-new rural planning. Why do you choose this topic? Rem Koolhaas: We think in the global level there are the most critical issues, critical subject. And maybe rural planning is already a kind of simplification. It's not necessary about the rural planning but it's about having a thinking about what countryside could be and thinking about what the countryside need to be and thinking about, you know, what need to happen in the countryside, to basically save the world I guess.
Stephan Petermann: In part it is also a response to our experiences in China particularly. But also I mean with a broader implication that stretches obviously beyond China but where you see that there are still these types of urban practices of cookie-cutter interventions from a top-down position are still very prevalent where they perhaps do not need to be. There's new ways of technology, new cultural shapes, new directions that also are enticing people to go to the countryside to be there, to visit that are from the bottom up more interesting and more relevant and where you try to see how could you create either hybrids or to make sure that it sort of align more with what local rersidents need or want, so that you don't have this constant battle between either a top-down good intentions program with a bottom-up development that doesn't connect so that's also a bit of a challenge that we face in many rural contexts.
Rem Koolhaas:For a private reason, I've been traveling a lot in Europe by car kind of recently, and I have to say it's both depressing and exciting. Because what is depressing is that you still see new shopping centers being made in the countryside; you still see enormous extensions of airports that you wonder are they really necessary. That you still see, you know, enormously homogeneous forms of agriculture. That we now know are kind of having an extremely negative effective on the world, but also you need to see really very serious efforts to create either solar energy or in certain cases combined. You see the beginning of different thinking about agriculture with more diversity and kind of smaller fields, and therefore we are in an interesting moment where you see, you know, on the one hand, one form of modernization is still going on. But on the other hand, also visible efforts to control itself; it is kind of a beautiful in-a-way moment where you know you have a feeling of OK.
UED: And considering rural planning here, what do you consider is “NEW”? And what kind of qualities or direction do you think the rural planning should have?贝叶斯定理
Stephan Petermann: In terms of newness it’s more to indeed say you know that's you know a lot have been achieved in the countryside as well, but there is also a need for sort of really redrafting some of the points that Rem also signaled about monocultures, about extraction, about climate change extraction, about climate change, so that just brings urgency to have this kind of new directio
n and newness could really also benefit. Let's say the idea that the countryside is a backward place.
I think that is a fallacy that is being put up largely by urban context just to differentiate and that is something that we cannot afford anymore. Therefore, I think this kind of to add consciousness of newness to this area can really help set the balance straight or at least give also space for new feelings and new need. It was very a very interesting article today on the paper about Turkey.
Rem Koolhaas: It describes how in Turkey these cities like some are still It expanding but there's a whole generation, I guess a new generation is going away from the city buying small plots of land and building on those lands simple houses that are made out of wood and straw or there is a kind of movement toward countryside. And not out of sentimental reasons, not because countryside is so beautiful, simply because there is another kind of life possible and there is now an incentive for people who want to live this kind of other life.
UED: In your opinion, what should be the relationship of countryside and city in the future?
Rem Koolhaas: Well I think right now there is no relationship and so I think there needs to be a relationship and you see all kinds of elements where a relationship is being established. And I think there is an issue that we live in a digital world. The digital world is supposedly virtual and invisible an
d kind of works through and about cables, but in order to run the digital world ,there is need for incredibly factories, data centers, data farms, data whatever. Basically those entities are too big to be in the cities. And more and more, they are inevitably built in the countryside and right now that is almost like a wild west, there's no thinking about it, no planning, just dump it in a very often very beautiful site. And I think that is probably the key thing where we really have to think of a new intergration perhaps, between city and countryside. We again tie our entire infrastructure of the modern age.
UED: So what is your expectation of the future countryside in a shorter time? 10 years?
Rem Koolhaas: Well I think in ten years what I described if around the world. There are kind of certain countries where you see mistake maybe mistake mistake mistake, and other countries where I say interesting interesting interesting interesting so I have a feeling that there will be a more interesting and more encouraging a kind of signs of new ways of enacting new countryside.
UED: Do you have any sentence to send to the participants?
Rem Koolhaas: Don't focus on aesthetics and focus on ideas. Articulate your ideas as ideas that are able to make something that communicates not only in the inside of a profession, but on a larger fiel
d.
